Anti-Childfree Dishonesty

How do I keep stumbling across this garbage? I found another dishonest anti-childfree post (aren’t they all?) earlier today. Let me tell you, it’s a pile. At least finding it wasn’t a result of being trolled, this time.

This post of mine began as a comment on the garbage post in question, but it was so long that I figured, “why waste it?” I included the whole of the blog post that I’m responding to so as to provide full context. Hmm… context… now there’s a novel concept, eh Meag?

I was just reading through old drafts and I wrote this one up several months ago and I figured I might as well post it, so herrreeee you goooo:

I really don’t understand the phenomenon of the Childfree attitude. Mainly the part about disliking children. The thing is, I like kids and I don’t really want to have any of my own but I stilllike them. You know why? BECAUSE I WAS ONE. How can you hate something that you once were? And it’s not like being a child was a bad choice you made one time in college after too many tequilas. It’s like scoffing at people who have had grandparents.

childfri

I think the most ridiculous aspect of the Childfree movement is that they believe they are social outcasts and need support groups because of how they are ostracized for spiteful behavior that defies all biological impulses and removes you from possibly your only reason for existence.

Childfree

My thoughts are that they just don’t want to share their toys.

First off, there’s the Childfree Ghetto  and these are my favorite quotes:

Be “green,” don’t be “green,” have kids, don’t have kids, it’s your choice. However, do NOT claim to be environmentalist in ANY way when you have children.

Because wanting to sustain a healthy planet for future generations has nothing to do with having future generations.  

Even on those days when I feel like life sucks, I tell myself, “At least I don’t have kids to support or look after or fight with someone about.”…I know a lot of people who cope to varying degrees with parenthood, but nobody who actually enjoys it.

I know right? AT LEAST IM NOT ONE OF THOSE SUCKERS.

I don’t care how many kids you have, or how tired they are, or how tired you are. If I got to the gate an hour ago to get my boarding pass, I deserve to board ahead of you. Plain and simple. If you’re disabled, or ill, or elderly, then I have no problem letting you board ahead of me because you aren’t as robust as I am and you need to be seated more quickly, or have special seating arrangements.

Because it isn’t ageism when you make special exceptions for the elderly, but FUCKING KIDS ARE SO SPOILED ARRGHAGHGAGH CROTCH DROPPINGS

Abandon your babies, Japan. Do it for the children!

And then there’s the Childfree Clique,

ChildfreeChick

which is (I assume) One woman (the childfree chick)’s crazy rambling about how lonely she is and rants about her friends being so stupid as to get married and find children:

…As someone who’s just recently been through the drama of watching a close friend have a baby and then morph into an undesirable

Then, in dissing one of these women who naturally decides to have children, she inevitably describes herself as well:

a new woman joined our social circle. She’s 32, from the same state I’m from and new to AZ, lives very near to my neighborhood, is a vegetarian (just like me), is completely non-religious (hello, ME!) is childless but has a dog she considers to be her child (yup, me again), is professional and career driven…and is basically, in a nutshell, a mirror image of me personality wise.

The problem? 
She wants babies. 
Fuckitty fucking motherfuck gawddamnitalltohell.

childfree_-_biology

It is, actually. Death is a biological result of life.

Both of these women sound completely insufferable. She regularly refers to stay at home moms as “unemployed stupid Mombies” (which I’m sure she’s totally proud of herself for inventing), and she shits on some parents for having crying children in a movie theater after admitting that she was also openly sobbing during the same movie.

JoyofTech

Basically, any militantly anti-anything movements make absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Especially when they are such totally normal things that exist in the world. I would probably go ahead and lump these child-free people in with straight xXx punk rawkers and angry anti-theists.

Because vaguely believing in a higher power, having a glass of wine with dinner, and wanting to start your own family someday makes you a disgusting and horrible human being.

Posts like this are why bloggers are not journalists.

Here’s a thought, if you’re going to write about a group of people, it might help to actually know a damned thing about your subject first. Just a tip.

1. Being childfree only means consciously deciding to never have kids. Nothing more, nothing less. If you’re chosen not to have kids, then congratufuckinglations, whether you use the label or not, you’re childfree. The individuals who make such a choice are just as diverse a group as those that choose to have kids. If you were honest, you would have recognized this and this post would either have taken a drastically different tone, or wouldn’t exist at all.

2. Not all childfree people dislike kids. Not all parents like kids. You are confusing childfreedom for pediaphobia, using a few unrepresentative quote mines. That’s just plain dishonest. You really should be ashamed of yourself for making such broad generalizations about an entire group based solely on the words of a few.

I’m a god(less)mother.

I’ve spent a great deal of my time volunteering to help kids.

3. Not that it’s wrong to dislike kids. I don’t think that there is a single human being alive who likes every other human being alive. I don’t like every adult I see. Why should I be expected to like every child? Exactly how old must someone be before I’m not automatically obligated to pretend to like them, regardless of their behavior? And if one doesn’t like kids, isn’t it better that they don’t have them?

4. It doesn’t matter if one was ever a child, it doesn’t mean they have to want or like them (which are not the same thing, as I’ve said.) Hey, this might shock you, not even all kids like other kids, certainly not every other kids they see. You’re argument is total nonsense.

5. Childfreedom is not a movement any more than parenting is. (Natalism and anti-natalism might be, but those aren’t the same thing) It’s a lifestyle decision made by individuals.

6. Childfreedom is not anti-anything. As someone who is proudly childfree, I’m not defined by what I’m not, but by what I am. I am childfree. That means that I live a drastically different life than parents. Childfee is the word for it.

Choosing to be childfree is life-affirming and positive for me.

7. I don’t know how anyone can be militantly childfree. All that means is being actively childfree. Am I militantly childfree for using birth control? Or is it publicly admitting to being childfree that makes one militant? I don’t know how anyone can be aggressively childfree, except maybe stomping their foot while buying condoms. You’re just using hyperbole, sensationalist language. I guess I’ll let that slide, only in the individual case of the person who identifies as such.

8. As for the quotes…

There WILL be a future generation. There are just too many people for all of them to be expected to choose to be childfree. However, the world is horribly overpopulated already and gets even worse with each new body. The best thing anyone can do for the next generation is limit that generation’s size. The population must be reduced to be sustainable. The person you quoted from Childfree Ghetto is not wrong.

In your second quote, you attack a person for having some optimism in their life by reminding themselves that it could be worse. Basically, you’re acting like finding comfort in childfreedom is a bad thing. That helps your argument how, exactly?

As for your third quote, the elderly do deserve special consideration because they’re less able due to their aged bodies. That’s not ageism, that’s a fucking fact. Being a mommie or a kid is not a disability, no matter how tired. There’s a big difference between being courteous to people in need, and granting privilege to people just because they breed.

I can’t discern the context of your fourth quote. Funny, an honest person would have provided that.

The next quote is even worse, as you can’t even be bothered to include the full sentence. It’s OK, unlike the link to the Childfree Gheto, which was members only, I could look up the context on Childfree Clique, which you failed to provide yourself. She was talking about a friend that changed so much after having a baby that they could no longer remain friends.

The next quote (which you didn’t quote properly, btw) is about this same person’s trepidation in becoming a close friend with someone when the same instance as before might repeat itself.

Curiously, none of this supports your insistence that childfree people hate kids, or are an anti movement.

9. You mention a person having a dislike for stay at home moms. Yeah, I can see why (barring any disability, or inability to find work, or special circumstance,) a grown adult choosing to live as a dependent long-term or permanently is kind of hard to respect. This opinion has nothing to do with childfreedom, or dislike for kids, however.

As for crying in movie theaters, I’m betting the adult made little noise in doing so. Unlike what can be reasonably expected of a kid.

10. Now the images.

The first is a bingo regularly lobbed at childfree people, but in reverse. The point, which you evidently missed, is that it’s inaccurate an unacceptable to accuse people of having pets only to make up for not having kids.

The second image, the button, is obviously a joke. Clearly, the person in question isn’t interested in becoming pregnant, and likely isn’t planning to serve toddler stew for dinner.

The third image. Yeah, as we’re not immortal, living things die. Obviously, that wasn’t the point of the quote in the image though, so I don’t know what made you think that stating that people die was relevant. The point of the quote is that just because someone can have kids does not mean that they must.

I don’t even know why you included the last comic. Were you just looking for images to pad the piece and distract from how sorely lacking in merit it is?

11. Childfree people aren’t necessarily social outcasts, but we do occasionally find ourselves faced with discrimination and judgement. Like, say, in this ignorant post, for example.

Elsewhere in this pile, you talk about childfreedom as defying biological impulses. Has it occurred to you that not everyone has a biological impulse to breed? Or that people, being intelligent beings, might be capable of reasoning that dissuades them following whatever capricious urge strikes for a moment?

It seems like a pretty misanthropic view to see a human’s only reason for existence being to breed. If that’s really what you think, then I surely pity you.

12. I’ve never head of a childfree support group, although I am aware of a number of childfree social groups. Yeah, it turns out, people sometimes like to talk and hang out with people with the same interests and who lead similar lives. There are mommy groups too, you know.

In short, I don’t think much of this piece, quite frankly. I’m not impressed by bloggers who feel the need to write about issues that they clearly don’t know jack shit about. And I REALLY can’t stand people who have to resort to blatant dishonesty to make up for their iniquity.

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Posted on 2011/11/18, in childfree, Feminism, Green, People, Prochoice, Sexism. Bookmark the permalink. 30 Comments.

  1. As the youngsters used to say: “Lame”
    I think the post referred to filled out a bingo card on its own.

  2. Yeah…I was kind of confused on parts of her writing too. I wasn’t sure why she was chastising childfree as a whole,then showing that comic about the pets,then flip-flopping back.Maybe it’s a good thing she doesn’t breed as her reading comprehension is lacking.

  3. Awesome post! I agree with everything you stated. I give the elderly special treatment too, because getting old is inevitable. Having kids is not. There’s no such thing as an age-control pill but there is such thing as a birth-control pill. I will admit it proudly, I can’t stand parents who complain about their lives. They signed up for the job, no one FORCED them to have kids. So why should I give them special treatment or feel bad for them? I also admit that I don’t care much for stay at home moms either. I’ve encountered way too many people who use kids as an excuse to quit their job and never go back to work. Call me jaded, but I just don’t seem to have much hope for these people. And posts like this person’s are one of the many reasons why…

    • Julie Was Here

      I will happily give up my seat or place in line to someone who genuinely needs it more than I do, whether or not they have or are kids. I just don’t think that having kids or being a kid automatically means they need or deserve it more than I do. A sick kid, or one with an injury would be a different matter, the same as with an adult.

      To me though, having something be a choice has little to do with the matter. I have, after all, had elective surgery before, and just could not stand for long periods or walk for very far without experiencing pain and difficulty breathing. Of course, I wasn’t out putting myself into situations where I’d be likely to need to do either. But, to be fair, it only lasted a few days.

  4. Most stay at home parents I know work a paid job from home. Some do internet sales, others childcare and some are artist. Not everyone drives to work. As far as the child free people I know, none of them hate kids.What they hate is the same thing we all do, clueless parents.
    The woman who is shy about being friends with a woman that wants kids ought to talk to her. Adults work out there issues with words . If this woman she waned to hang with was going to join the Peace Corp or was in the Army and may be deployed would she feel like being friends was pointless?
    Have you ever had a best friend who gets mad if you date and they are still single? How about one who avoids you when you get skinny on a diet? The child free friends I had who could not deal with my choice to have kids were the same sort of people who would do those other 2 things. Child free friends who were open minded and sure of there own choices are still my friends today. They get that for me family (not just kids) are first.

    • Julie Was Here

      Sorry, I can’t agree with this comment at all.

      I only know one sahm. She’s a sahm due to disability, and having a special-needs son to look after. I’m not in a position to know for sure, but I doubt she’s a sahm by choice. She’d probably take a job if she could, her family needs it. However, she is still a busy person. She manages to do a lot of important activism work from her home. Computers are amazing like that.

      As for people who are sahms by choice, I can’t say for certain, but I highly doubt most of them actually work from home, as you describe. From what I’ve read from people identifying as sahms, it seems a great deal hardly do much of anything at all. Being a sahm is sometimes simply about unwillingness to work, rather than inability to work or child care needs. Not all sahms are like that, but being a sahm is an attractive station for the lazy, which gives sahms in general a bad image.

      As for friends, I think you’ve made a poor analogy. Well, several, actually. Comparing growing apart with friends who have children to being jealous of a skinny friend is a false equivalence as bitterness has nothing to do with it.

      I’ve had many friends in my life who I have grown apart from over the years. Everyone has their own lives. That’s how the world works, welcome to it. When a friend in high school got a boyfriend she was obsessed over and spent ALL of her time with, we grew apart. It was unfortunate, but she was too busy with him to even talk to her friends.

      When I joined the Army and deployed to Iraq, I grew apart from friends in my hometown. It’s kind of hard to maintain a relationship with someone who can’t or won’t make time to see you for years at a time, and unreasonable to expect otherwise.

      To compare either of these situations to being jealous of a skinny friend is nonsense and completely unfair. None of the situations you described was anything like someone intentionally distancing themselves from a friend just because they’ve grown skinny.

      As it is, people change when they have kids. Their schedules change, their priorities change, their interests change, their personalities change – everything about them changes. As it is, it’s not surprising that cf people and parents might grow apart as they might suddenly find they have less and less in common.

      Consider that moms like associating with other moms – they have something in common! People tend to seek out people with similar lives and interests to themselves to be friends with.

      It is hard to maintain a relationship with someone who is too busy with kids to spend time with you, or acts smug and superior for having bred, or incessantly talks about baby poop, and otherwise has nothing to discuss other than the mundane doings of their child. I don’t know for sure, but from the sounds of it, the person quoted about being hesitant to make friends with someone who plans to be a mom feels this way because this is more or less what she experienced when another friend bred.

      I have exactly one mom friend (apart from my own mom,) and she is nothing like the above-described. So I’m aware that the example of a baby-obsessed mom is not universally true. However such people DO exist and ten to be off-putting.

  5. Antoinette Gilchrest

    I find your opinions about Stay at Home Mom’s uninformed. I am one and I have never been idle or lazy. Listen. I respect your choices to not have children. I firmly believe that having children is not for everyone. I greatly respect those who know themselves enough to know they don’t want kids and then take measures to make sure they don’t have any. I think this world takes all kinds of people to be successful. I do have a problem with some of your sentiments though. I know a lot of different stay at home moms and none of them are lazy, or are using their kids as an excuse to not work. Your tone regarding those of us who have chosen to be parents is at best offensive. I don’t understand why a woman’s right to choose seems to only apply to the choice to not have kids. I chose to have children. I chose to stay home to raise them rather than put them in day care for 9 hours a day 5 days a week just so I could work. I can work later. This solution doesn’t work for everyone. This is not a black and white issue. But to put people down because they stay home with the kids? Well, it is obvious you don’t really have any experience or real knowledge of this issue so I would suggest that you keep your opinions to your self until you can speak with some authority about the topic. Speaking about things you know nothing about makes you seem young and impetuous. Make your choices and be proud of them. You should. But don’t condemn me for mine.

    • Julie Was Here

      Oh, hit a sore spot, have I?

      I thought I was very generous in my assessment of SAHMs in my above comment. I guess you missed this:

      “Being a sahm is sometimes simply about unwillingness to work, rather than inability to work or child care needs. Not all sahms are like that, but being a sahm is an attractive station for the lazy, which gives sahms in general a bad image.”

      If that counts for condemnation, you must have paper-thin skin. Well, if I’m going to be declared offensive anyway, then I may as well speak the whole truth (especially since someone had the nerve to tell me, on MY OWN BLOG no less, that I shouldn’t.)

      The truth is, respecting your right to have certain choices available to you does not mean that I am required to treat them all as equally valid. For instance, while I support my teenage sister’s RIGHT TO CHOOSE to keep an unplanned pregnancy, even though she has no education, no vehicle, no permanent residence, works in fast-food, has a much older baby-daddy who barely works is a douche from what I hear, I do not support her choice itself on the grounds that it’s monumentally stupid. For clarity, it’s not my sister, but my sister’s ACTIONS that I find stupid. And I’ve told her so. I love her to death, but this is a move that I can not respect. I respect her RIGHT to this choice, but not the choice itself.

      So yes, I am allowed to hold views of SAHMs, and I’m in a position to be informed enough for those views to be valid. SAHMs tend to spend a lot of time on the internet (what with not having jobs and all) and many will confess that they simply don’t want to work, will lie to their husbands about childcare costs to keep from having to work, and will intentionally space pregnancies to avoid work. Ever visit http://www.truuconfessions.com/channels/Mom? It’s full of the stuff, mostly posted anonymously. As I said in my original “offensive” comment, I don’t think these people represent all SAHMs, but they DO exist and DO make SAHMs look bad.

      Some SAHMs stay home because they’re disabled and can’t work, or because they can’t find a job, or because the child has special-needs, or because the child is still breastfeeding, or because the child is too young for school, etc. Those are reasons that I can respect for being a SAHM. They are reasons of necessity or circumstance rather than simple laziness.

      But just staying home because one doesn’t feel like getting a job, doesn’t feel like leaving home, I do not respect. There is nothing respectable about a grown adult willfully living as the dependent of another. I can no more respect SAHMs in this category than I can respect the 30-year-old who refuses to find a job and lives in his mother’s basement. I would be ASHAMED to sit at home all day and mooch off of someone who works hard day in and day out to earn the money that payed my bills when I am fully capable of earning for myself.

      It is entirely possible to raise kids while holding a job like an adult. Most parents do just that. And indeed, I think a good parent should work as it sets a good example for children that they must earn what they want and should have a good work ethic, that they should manage their time and priorities wisely, that they should put the needs of the family (like having food on the table) above their personal desire to stay home, and that men and women should each be expected to pull their own weight equally with respect to the families domestic as well as financial needs. “Look at how successful my career is WHILE raising a family. Now, go be even more successful than I was,” should be the challenge to the children. My respect goes to parents who hold jobs just like everybody else does, or, if they can’t work, still find ways to usefully contribute to society in a tangible way.

  6. Madea Rogers

    I’m childfree, but at one point I figured that I would have kids eventually. I also figured that I would be a SAHM despite having a great career. This is because all the research pointed to the benefits of children raised in this manner. I think it’s as great choice for those that can do it and great for the kids. Honestly, I think it’s more work to be a SAHM than a working mom. Even better if you can homeschool. In the end, the career won out over being a mom, but I honestly think the world would be a better place with more SAHMs.

    • Julie Was Here

      Bullshit. A working woman’s does everything a sahm does, and more. After a long day of doing actual work, she (and he) come home and deal with kids and domestic chores. And thats relaxing by comparison. Not only that, but they have to juggle the kids needs with their jobs.

      Don’t tell me that people who work for a living AND have to manage their home lives don’t work as hard as people who get to stay home all day changing diapers and watching tv while someone else pays the bills. Of people who CAN work, my respect goes to those who do, not the Intentionally unemployed.

      Oh, and one more thing, schooling is to be done by properly trained teachers, unless some outside circumstance necessitates for homeschooling (health problems, behavior problems, traveling families, etc.) Just pushing a kid out does not qualify someone to be an educator.

      • Madea Rogers

        Yes, I definitely used to have the same opinion on this as you do now. I saw SAHMs as being snobs, lazy, and over-privileged princesses. I guess it’s because my mom was a single working mother and maybe part of me was jealous of the kids who had moms to take care of them all day. Then as me and my husband were getting more serious about possibly having kids, I put a lot more thought into it. It really seemed like the best thing to do for the child. The working moms I know describe work as being a haven, they’d rather be at work than be home taking care of their child. I do think you’re right that some use it as an excuse to be lazy and not work, but I think taking care of a young child is a lot of work. In the end I decided it was too much work and even if I put the kid in daycare, having a child would hinder me from moving up the career ladder. I’ve since discovered other arguments for not having kids and feel like I’ve dodged a bullet. Anywho, I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and like your snappy come-backs.

        • Julie Was Here

          Snappy comebacks? I might be a bit more snarky than I intend to be…

          Sent from my iPhone

  7. Madea Rogers

    Promise me you’ll never change. Also, I added your newest post to reddit /r/childfree

  8. About your sister having an unplanned pregnancy, has she ever thought of giving her child for adoption? It might be an option for her if she has no education, no skills, unstable relationship, etcetera. Also, now there are ‘open adoption’ options where a biological mother can have news about and sometimes, if she wishes, contact with the child she bears. Don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying all women in her situation should give their children up, and I certainly don’t abide by the ‘adoption, not abortion’ bumper-sticker mentality, but adoption might be a good option for a woman who doesn’t feel comfortable aborting (which your sister doesn’t appear to be) but who might not be in the best position to raise a child.

    • Julie Was Here

      If she doesn’t feel comfortable doing the smartest thing, how can I hope she’ll feel comfortable with the second smartest? She actually seemed offended when I asked her about it.

      I’ve decided that I don’t care what she does as long as it doesn’t affect me. And I certainly have no intention of getting involved with either the pregnancy, or the hardships that will follow as a result of her having a child that she can’t care for. I do not, in any way, support what she’s doing and I’ve made that clear from the beginning. I’ll let her make her own mistakes – and this IS a mistake – and deal with the consequences herself. It sucks to know that the sister that I love dearly has ruined her life, but that’s in her, not me. If anyone tries to chastise me for not helping out with her baby, I will say that I’ve already tried to help by advising abortion. Any hardship she has is a result of her refusing my advice. My conscience is clear. I have nothing more to say in the matter.

      As for myself, I’ll be living hundreds of miles away, enjoying my own life, not affected by family drama. I can be happy knowing that all that I enjoy out of my own life I have earned through responsible choices. I seem to be the only one among my siblings not fucking their life up.

      • icedemonrose

        What makes you so sure I’m unable to care for my child? Yes, I’ve thought about my options.

        A) Abortion, not for me
        B) Adoption, would be my option if i had no way of raising my child
        C) Keep it, chosen due to the fact that the father and I have a stable home, a stable relationship, a shared desire to raise it, and stable jobs to do so. They may not be the best paying jobs, but it’s enough to pay the bills and live off of.

        I may be young, but that doesn’t give either of you the right to judge my decisions, or, as Julie said, say that I’ve ruined my life, or to decide what is or isn’t my smartest option

        • Julie Was Here

          I was asked my opinion, so I told the truth. I’m entitled to comment on matters related to my own life, the goings-on of my family. Sorry if you don’t like it. I had my say and was done with it. I didn’t name you and you didn’t have to identify yourself. But since you did, and you want to get in a twist over it, sure, I’ll comment.

          On the subject of the truth, you know you’re not telling it. You’re not stable in any way, nor do you have the ability to pay your bills by yourself. You’re not fooling anyone, least of all me. Last I was aware, you don’t have a home of your own; you couch surf between houses owned by other people or have other people living with you in filthy houses to help with rent. Do you even have a car yet? Neither you nor your man-child sperm donor have decent jobs or get decent pay, by any standard. You have no paid maternity leave or sufficient medical benefits at work, by your own accounts. You owe mom and dad money, and have even before you got knocked up. Hell, I’ve even had to help pay for your shit, which I only did to help mom out so she wouldn’t have to. Even now, your bills are helped my mom and dad, their insurance, and Illinois tax payers. You haven’t even got all of the basic things you need to take care of a baby yet, and you’re counting on a baby-shower gift grab to get them. Did you really think that I didn’t know? You have neither the maturity nor the resources to take care of yourself as it is, as you’re nothing more than a child yourself, used to having other people deal with your problems for you. You aren’t even responsible enough to use birth control correctly, and now some poor kid is going to be stuck with you. Tell yourself whatever you want, but we both know the truth. And if you really do believe all that bull you claimed, then you are in for a rude awakening when you can no longer ignore reality.

          If I was told correctly, the first thing that you said to mom is that you’ve ruined your life. You were right. But you’ve been lied to, by nearly everyone around you, by people who care more about your short-term feelings that your actual long-term life, telling you that everything will be OK. Although you don’t like it, I have cared about you enough to tell you the hard truth. The first thing I said to you, when I found out, was “you’re an idiot.” You didn’t seem to have a problem with that at the time. Maybe you weren’t in such deep denial then. Get upset with me if you want, but facts aren’t changed by feelings alone.

          Maybe, years down the road, you’ll recover from this and get your life back on track. Maybe you’ll manage to get an education and a decent job. Maybe you’ll actually mature into a responsible adult. Maybe then, you’ll be OK. But it will take a lot more responsibility and motivation than you have ever shown in your life to do it now. I sincerely mean it when I wish you good luck in unfucking your life, kid.

          • icedemonrose

            I am stable, you have no real basis on which to judge my stability, financial or otherwise
            The last you were aware, i had no home of my own and was couch hopping, yes, this is true. i was house hopping because BF’s roommate had gone batshit crazy and it wasn’t really a good idea to stay living there. We couch hopped while looking for a new home, which we found 2 months ago.
            Calling my house filthy is something you have no place to comment on as you have never even seen it, which for your information, our home is kept very clean.
            No, I don’t have my own car, nor do I see how that’s relevant.
            Calling him “my man-child sperm donor” is just a blatant attack. Again, may not be the best jobs, but it’s paychecks that pay our bills.
            Most companies don’t have paid maternity leave, and it’s McDonald’s, so of course it’s lousy insurance.
            Yes, I owe our parents money, but who doesn’t owe someone money, being in debt is quite common is the US. You helping pay for things was when I was in high school working lousy hours.
            Mum and dad don’t help me with my bills, the last time they did was loaning money to help with our security deposit because my savings bond wasn’t fully matured like we thought it was and we needed the money before my next payday. I paid them back less than a week later.I’m also not on their insurance. Yes, Illinois tax payers help cover me due to the fact that I have Medicaid.
            A lot of pregnant women, regardless of income, rely on baby shower gifts to help get essentials as babies are expensive.
            You really have no say in my maturity level, I’m young, not immature. Also, how have I ever had other people deal with my problems, I don’t even go to other people with my problems except maybe to vent or ask for advice on how best to deal with it.
            I’m not even going to get into using birth control correctly, because there is no 100% effective method short of your choice of sterilization.
            I never told mum I ruined my life, and when you said I was an idiot, I agreed in the sense that I was for it happening, not for my choice of what was, for me, the best option.
            My life is on track, just on a different path than I intended.
            An education isn’t required for a decent job, look at mum’s job, education requirement is a high school diploma, so can you really say she doesn’t have a decent job? Also, you can’t really say what is or isn’t a decent job, I work 40 hours a week, and make decent money.
            I am a responsible, mature adult.

            • Julie Was Here

              Well, damn, I lost my original rely and now I have to type all over again.

              You’re not stable. Not in any way. You know it. I know it. VP Biden knows it. You’re a mess.

              I was calling the place you used to live with a bunch of other children filthy. You know it was. That’s why mom made such a big deal of getting you out of there. As for couch-hopping and looking for a home, a home is something responsible people have BEFORE they get knocked up.

              Cars are how we adults get around town. It’s how we go to and from work, medical appointments, and other engagements. It’s how we go grocery shopping. It’s how we go about our lives as independent adults without having to beg and borrow and bum rides from other people. It’s how we, as responsible adults, take control of our lives. I don’t know how you really think you can take care of a baby without one.

              Man-child sperm donor seems like the most apt title for an underemployed slacker who was plenty old enough to be moved out but still lived with other people, and goes after much younger girls (I was going to go with borderline pedophile.) I’ve seen no reason to consider you or him mother or father, as your only claim to that title is a sperm transfer. You haven’t got your shit together.

              I don’t owe money to any person. All the money that I’ve ever borrowed from our parents I have paid back long ago, not that I’m trying to bring kids into it. Hell, I give THEM money now. I help Chris out. And I’ve helped you out more than you’re probably even aware. The only money I owe is not borrowed from a person for my inability to obtain something that I need, it’s a small sum owed to a bank for a car that I recently bought. I didn’t have to do that, but did do this to build credit, and so I could give my old car, which I owed nothing on, away to a friend who needed it.

              If it were up to me, no company would have paid maternity leave beyond regular sick leave and vacation time. As yours doesn’t, have you saved money to cover you for the entire time you’ll be out of work? Knowing you, I doubt it.

              “Mom and dad don’t help me with the bills, except when they do.” Not only are mom and dad helping you with your bills, but I’ve been helping you buy shit you need too if only to keep mom from wasting all of her money on your ass. And yeah, according to dad, you are on their insurance. You evidently don’t have your own, as you admit to being on medicaid, which is payed by people who actually contribute to society, including mom and dad. You can’t pay your own shit as it is and you seriously want to claim to be a stable, mature, adult? No.

              No responsible adult in their right mind relies on baby showers for a thing. They might have a shower, but by the time they ever have one, they’ve already collected all the essential items that they’re going to need – because that’s what responsible people do! Yeah, babies are expensive. If you can’t even afford all the basic shit like cribs and car-seats by yourself, you can’t afford to raise it.

              How have you had other people deal with your problems? Well, I do remember paying for your trip to Germany since you couldn’t be bothered to save for it. The reason you ever had a car to borrow was a direct result of people solving your problems for you. I know mom was the one doing most of the work getting you the medical care that you needed once knocked up. And even by your own admission here you’re relying on other people to solve your problems for you still. You’re relying on other people to pay for your medical care, you relied on mom and dad to help you get a house, and you have the attitude that you don’t have to worry about obtaining basic shit for your baby because you’re relying on other people to solve that problem for you with a baby shower. OH YEAH, that’s just the picture of maturity!

              Sure, no method of birth control is 100% effective (except abortion,) but actually using some helps. I heard you were off your pill, is that true? And different methods can be doubled up. And then there’s Plan B which I KNOW I’ve spoken to you about before. There’s no excuse.

              Your life is only on track if you planned on being knocked up and poor. Oh yeah, you’re on track alright, and the track is headed straight into the ground.

              Actually, yeah, and education IS required for a decent job. Mom’s job requires more than a diploma. She has work experience, managerial experience, and special training. And last I spoke to her, she told me that I was making more at my job than she is at hers. My education wasn’t a diploma, but training I got through the Army. Look at any “help wanted” ad, and let me know if you find any well-paying job that asks, “must know how to flip burgers.”

              You have no idea what you’ve done to your life. Or you do, but being defensive, refuse to to admit it so you can keep living in your little fantasy. The last time I talked to you about me visiting home, you seriously thought you could go with me to the caves and to the drive0in theater either heavily pregnant or with an infant, evidently unaware that freedom is only a distant memory for you now. You act like you really thin that you can just keep the same life you’ve always had. You can’t. You’ve lost. Welcome to reality.

              You’re a delusional child who thinks you’re playing house, going about this as if you’re just getting a new toy or a new pet. You’re not even close to a mature adult. If you were, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. I hoped for better for you. I wanted you to have a good life. I wanted you to be successful. It’s too bad you didn’t want that too. You were meant for more than this. And for that, I truly pity you.

              • icedemonrose

                I’m not even going to get into the stability as you won’t listen to me anyway, even tho you’ve given no proof of how I’m unstable.
                We had a home, then his roommate went batshit crazy, so we had to leave because neither of us felt safe.
                I said I didn’t have a car, BF does. We use it to do all those things. Also, cars are not a requirement, there’s this lovely thing called public transportation, it’s much cheaper and better for the environment actually.
                Also not going to get into that one, as again, you won’t listen. Still nothing more than a blatant attack.
                You misunderstood what I meant, or I misspoke. I didn’t mean to a person nesicarily, just to some institution, in your case, a bank.
                Yes, I do have money saved for my leave.
                If I’m still on their health insurance, I wasn’t aware of it, last I was told I was being removed end of last year. As for tax payers helping with my insurance, you do realize I’m also a tax payer, right?
                I never asked mum to buy my crib, I could’ve afforded it. I can also afford my own car seat, and all my other essentials.
                Mum did no work getting me my medical care, most she did was look at the list of doctors I had gotten and point out the one she was familiar with, as the only one I had heard about was negative reviews, and then helped me find the office as we were already going to be in that area.
                Going to let this one lie also.
                I misspoke, I didn’t mean her job specifically, I meant the company, their base education requirement is only a diploma.
                I never thought I could go to the caves, and you were the one suggesting going to the drive in, because when we were talking about this, you were saying you’d try to come out earlier when going that far would be a nonissue. So don’t even try turning that on me since it was your idea to begin with.
                Don’t call me delusional, I know exactly what I’m getting myself into. You’re the one who’s delusional, not even bothering to listen to a word I say, or even talking to me like a rational adult. And you call me immature.

  9. Julie Was Here

    I’ve given no proof that you’re unstable? You know, ignoring what I’ve said won’t make it go away, right?

    If your residence is dependent on the sanity of a third person, you didn’t have a home. I don’t know how you can even claim dependence as having a home.

    Public transportation? Yeah, and how long does it take you to get to and from work on public transportation? How much money do you figure this time will add to your childcare costs? Or have you thought of that at all?

    No, getting auto financing from a bank is not the same as being dependent on the generosity of others. You can’t even argue that.

    If you can afford all of your essentials, then why do you still depend on a baby-shower to get them? You even admitted dependence.

    You can’t call yourself a “tax payer” if you take more from the system than you put into it. You leach taxes that could have gone to help p[people who are in trouble though no fault of their own, laid off or disabled. Welcome to America, where we subsidize stupidity. It’s people like you who abuse the system that cause social assistance programs to be under constant attack.

    Mom did now work getting you medical care? You mean besides helping you get on medicaid and getting you to appointments and telling you what you need?

    You are even more delusional than I ever imagined if you seriously believe you’re going to make anything of value out of your life without an education.

    I said I was going to caves and drive in, at which point you thought you’d come with. You even suggested I make this visit home after you’ve birthed so I could “meet the baby.” Then I pointed out all the problems with that. As an alternative to your idea of going heavily preggo or with a baby, I suggested I might be able to come earlier.

    I can’t talk to you like a rational adult because you aren’t a rational adult. I’m telling you exactly what you have needed to hear from the beginning, and what everyone else around you has failed to tell you. Your friends have LIED to you instead. I tell you the truth. You’re just to immature to handle that.

    Reality is a slap in the face, isn’t it?

    • icedemonrose

      His lack of sanity was why we had to find somewhere new.
      It takes less than 10 mins to get to/from work by bus. It doesnt add to childcare cost at all.
      I never said it made you dependant, and in my original statement, I didn’t mean you specificlly, I mean you as in people in general, my fault for not clarifying that.
      I never said I was depending on a baby shower, I wasnt even originally going to have one.
      Yes, I can call myself a taxpayer, my money goes into the system.
      Mum told me where to go to apply because she knew the location and I didn’t, and only took me to two appointments, once to meet my doctor, again because I was too sick to drive. Both times she made the offer.
      No, you’re not being a rational adult, you are disrespecting me and my life choices, and being a bitch.

      • Julie Was Here

        No, fool, you’re supposed to have a place to call your own, then move out. You can’t blame “crazy roommates” when the real problem was your inability to get a place of your own to live, like a responsible fucking adult would have had before even thinking of bringing a baby into it.

        In response to me pointing out how you don’t have your baby shit together: “A lot of pregnant women, regardless of income, rely on baby shower gifts to help get essentials as babies are expensive.” No excuses.

        You are entirely dependent upon other people, and always have been. You never grew up.

        I’m “disrespecting” your choices because your choices are fucking retarded. It’s better than disrespecting you as all of your lying friends have done. It’s a shame you don’t have the sense to appreciate it. Because you’re going to suffer as a result of your poor judgement, and so will your kid. I at least tried to warn you.

        Don’t go getting mad at me. It’s not my fault you fucked your life up. And your life would be just as fucked regardless of anything that I said. I’m just telling the weather.

        You’re a petulant child. And as long as you lie that you’ve already grown up, you never really will.

        You can get your humongous panties in a twist if you want, but you know I’m telling the truth.

        • icedemonrose

          I do believe the ter, “batshit crazy” implies that you need to get away right that second, and, that was in February. Since then, I kinda have my owb home, a fact you seem to be ignoring.
          You were the one saying I was relying on the baby shower, I was merely pointing out that women do that.
          How am I dependant on other people? I do believe I’ve disproven every example you’ve given.
          Who are you to say my choices are stupid? Who are you to say I’ve been lied to? I’m not going to suffer due to my choices, you’re the liar for saying I will.
          Again, my life isn’t fucked.
          I’m not a child, a child would’ve gone running to mommy and daddy to take care of everything. I’ve gone to mum for advice and moral support. I have responsibilities now that I didn’t before. I’m taking that seriously.

          • Julie Was Here

            A home you should have had long ago, but didn’t. You and sperm donor shouldn’t have need a roommate in the first place, not if you seriously thought you were capable of raising a kid. As for getting a home, eventually, someone else had to help you get it.

            You ARE relying on a baby shower. If you weren’t, you would have had your shit together long ago, in the home you should have had long ago.

            What do you mean how are you dependent on other people? I already told you and you haven’t disproven a thing. Face it, brat, you’re nowhere near independent but rely heavily on other people in the from of mooching off people you know, as well as every tax payer in the state.

            Who am I to say your choices are stupid? Someone with a brain. I bet if I was lying to you and patting your back, live everyone around you, you wouldn’t have such a problem. I’m bursting your delusional bubble. And that doesn’t sit well with with you.

            Yes, you are going to suffer because of this choice, and will continue to do so for years, just as has everyone else who had kids they didn’t plan for and can not afford. And your kid will suffer too.

            You have gone running to mommy and daddy to take care of everything, as well as the sperm donor, your friends, and the state. You’re not taking a thing seriously, you can’t, it upsets your fantasy that your life won’t suffer. You haven’t thought this through in the slightest and everyone knows. Everyone says so behind your back, even your friends who smile as they lie to your face.

            You can not take care of a child. Not in the way any child deserves. You’re not stable. You’re not responsible. You can not afford it. And now, like a child, you get defensive when these facts are pointed out to you rather than acknowledging them. You are a child.

  10. Its so refreshing to hear someone tell someone the truth, instead of sugar coating it to make the person feel better. We need licences to drive, why shouldn’t we have licences to have childern. At the very least, we would know people had to a least read a book about what to expect.
    In regards to the above argumet – which was quite fun to read, btw, – its scary how deluded some people are, and think that society will give them what they want. Even when getting a dog, you have to plan for emergencies.
    Congrats to you for standing up for your ideas!

  11. Julie Was Here

    I see someone never figured out time stamps.

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